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	<title>Comments on: Joint Referential (Un)Certainty: The &#8220;Wallace and Gromit&#8221; Dilemma</title>
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	<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/</link>
	<description>Natural Language Processing and Text Analytics</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lingpipe</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4410</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lingpipe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4410</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doh!  That is Lou Costello on the left.  Pardon me while I go change the original post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doh!  That is Lou Costello on the left.  Pardon me while I go change the original post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mark Dominus</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Dominus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 05:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s Lou Costello on the left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s Lou Costello on the left.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lingpipe</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4369</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lingpipe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I started writing the blog post with old-school referential semantics in mind.  By &quot;old school&quot;, I mean the kind of semantics that would&#039;ve been familiar to Bertrand Russell.  

It only dawned on me as I was writing that we&#039;re facing many of the same problems in our named-entity detection and database linkage, which are just a kind of syntax and semantics.  

The tie-in is that developing an annotation standard for a machine learning task is tantamount to developing a traditional kind of syntactic and semantic theory. 

I&#039;ve been meaning to write a longer post on this topic -- corpus annotation coding standards are the new home of the kind of linguistics I always liked, which is more example driven than theory driven.

I didn&#039;t even go into the fact that Wallace and Gromit are fictional, which in itself presents a non-trivial semantic puzzle.

[Punctuation and Semantics Exercise: Explain the alternate hyphenations of &quot;old school&quot; and the quotes in the first paragraph of this response.]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started writing the blog post with old-school referential semantics in mind.  By &#8220;old school&#8221;, I mean the kind of semantics that would&#8217;ve been familiar to Bertrand Russell.  </p>
<p>It only dawned on me as I was writing that we&#8217;re facing many of the same problems in our named-entity detection and database linkage, which are just a kind of syntax and semantics.  </p>
<p>The tie-in is that developing an annotation standard for a machine learning task is tantamount to developing a traditional kind of syntactic and semantic theory. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to write a longer post on this topic &#8212; corpus annotation coding standards are the new home of the kind of linguistics I always liked, which is more example driven than theory driven.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t even go into the fact that Wallace and Gromit are fictional, which in itself presents a non-trivial semantic puzzle.</p>
<p>[Punctuation and Semantics Exercise: Explain the alternate hyphenations of "old school" and the quotes in the first paragraph of this response.]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brew</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4360</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Brew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 04:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4360</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, I thought Bob&#039;s article pointed out that even a well-fleshed out
formal theory of semantics misses some tricks on examples with Gromit
indeterminacy.  So I guess it resonates differently for different people.

This may be absurdly old-school, but it seems to me that to have a named entity to detect in the first place you need three things. 

- a name    (we can safely assume that this is a subsequence of the document
                      it is in)
- an entity  (what&#039;s that?)
- the appropriate relation between the name and the entity (what&#039;s that?)

Thus, in my view, any system that does named entity detection is in effect taking some
kind of position on the second two aspects. Either it works with an explicit
theory of these things (in which case, don&#039;t forget to consult Montague and his successors), or it&#039;s theory is implicit, and must be deduced from its
behaviour before it can be evaluated.  In either case the question of exactly what we want from an NE detector seems worthwhile. And that, I expect, will
be deeply and irrevocably application dependent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I thought Bob&#8217;s article pointed out that even a well-fleshed out<br />
formal theory of semantics misses some tricks on examples with Gromit<br />
indeterminacy.  So I guess it resonates differently for different people.</p>
<p>This may be absurdly old-school, but it seems to me that to have a named entity to detect in the first place you need three things. </p>
<p>- a name    (we can safely assume that this is a subsequence of the document<br />
                      it is in)<br />
- an entity  (what&#8217;s that?)<br />
- the appropriate relation between the name and the entity (what&#8217;s that?)</p>
<p>Thus, in my view, any system that does named entity detection is in effect taking some<br />
kind of position on the second two aspects. Either it works with an explicit<br />
theory of these things (in which case, don&#8217;t forget to consult Montague and his successors), or it&#8217;s theory is implicit, and must be deduced from its<br />
behaviour before it can be evaluated.  In either case the question of exactly what we want from an NE detector seems worthwhile. And that, I expect, will<br />
be deeply and irrevocably application dependent.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alexandre Rafalovitch</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alexandre Rafalovitch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Chris,

My interest and comment was in the context of NE detection, which is what the original article was about. From that point of view, I suspect any current algorithm would treat the text as two references and any one-&gt;two mapping would be non-trivial on or post co-reference stage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Chris,</p>
<p>My interest and comment was in the context of NE detection, which is what the original article was about. From that point of view, I suspect any current algorithm would treat the text as two references and any one-&gt;two mapping would be non-trivial on or post co-reference stage.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brew</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4343</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Brew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[After reading Alexandre, I see that simpler way of saying what I just said is

They could have written

draft resolution A/56/L.28 as modified by Add.1

instead of 

draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1

but they didn&#039;t have to, because shared knowledge of the pragmatics of the
situation gives &quot;and&quot; the right force anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading Alexandre, I see that simpler way of saying what I just said is</p>
<p>They could have written</p>
<p>draft resolution A/56/L.28 as modified by Add.1</p>
<p>instead of </p>
<p>draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1</p>
<p>but they didn&#8217;t have to, because shared knowledge of the pragmatics of the<br />
situation gives &#8220;and&#8221; the right force anyway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Brew</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4342</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Brew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not at all obvious to me that “draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1″ is two  documents. This is because the physical form of the documents is
not necessarily the focus of the discussion. Instead, what matters is that
there is a resolution under consideration. There may be two sheets of
paper, but everyone knows that there is just one thing you could vote on.

Domain knowledge says that Add.1 is probably an addendum 
or addition. But Add.1 could easily be something that is totally  dependent on
the content of  A/56/L.28, like:

&quot;remove Wensleydale from the list of cheeses in paragraph 4&quot; 

In that case, the effective draft resolution is indeed A/56/L.28 and Add.1, and
it would be coherent for people to say stuff like &quot;I would be in favour of  A/56/L.28, which isn&#039;t on the  table, but must vote against A/56/L.28 and Add.1, which is &quot;. As usual, the deal with named entities is that people are using language to talk about the things they care about, and there is some slop.

The question of how a bureaucracy formulates and uses the rules for building resolutions and voting on them is probably a research topic for someone, but might be a tough sell as a contribution to linguistic semantics. My sense is that there are two semi-formal systems operating here: the linguistic system that defines how the mapping to meaning usually works and the legal framework that explains how you resolve disputes what was voted on.  There are no strong reasons to expect that these will align exactly. To understand a usage, however, you will sometimes have to consider both.

OK. Now I&#039;ll read what Alexandre says]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not at all obvious to me that “draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1″ is two  documents. This is because the physical form of the documents is<br />
not necessarily the focus of the discussion. Instead, what matters is that<br />
there is a resolution under consideration. There may be two sheets of<br />
paper, but everyone knows that there is just one thing you could vote on.</p>
<p>Domain knowledge says that Add.1 is probably an addendum<br />
or addition. But Add.1 could easily be something that is totally  dependent on<br />
the content of  A/56/L.28, like:</p>
<p>&#8220;remove Wensleydale from the list of cheeses in paragraph 4&#8243; </p>
<p>In that case, the effective draft resolution is indeed A/56/L.28 and Add.1, and<br />
it would be coherent for people to say stuff like &#8220;I would be in favour of  A/56/L.28, which isn&#8217;t on the  table, but must vote against A/56/L.28 and Add.1, which is &#8220;. As usual, the deal with named entities is that people are using language to talk about the things they care about, and there is some slop.</p>
<p>The question of how a bureaucracy formulates and uses the rules for building resolutions and voting on them is probably a research topic for someone, but might be a tough sell as a contribution to linguistic semantics. My sense is that there are two semi-formal systems operating here: the linguistic system that defines how the mapping to meaning usually works and the legal framework that explains how you resolve disputes what was voted on.  There are no strong reasons to expect that these will align exactly. To understand a usage, however, you will sometimes have to consider both.</p>
<p>OK. Now I&#8217;ll read what Alexandre says</p>
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		<title>By: Alexandre Rafalovitch</title>
		<link>http://lingpipe-blog.com/2009/03/26/joint-referential-uncertainty-the-wallace-and-gromit-dilemma/#comment-4340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alexandre Rafalovitch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lingpipe-blog.com/?p=1074#comment-4340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can give another interesting example of a conjunction from the documents of the United Nations: &quot;draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1&quot;. Notice the singular &quot;resolution&quot;, even though we obviously have two documents here.

I would love to see your take on this expression. I wrote down my understanding of it on my own blog: http://blog.outerthoughts.com/2009/03/conjunctions-in-named-entities/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can give another interesting example of a conjunction from the documents of the United Nations: &#8220;draft resolution A/56/L.28 and Add.1&#8243;. Notice the singular &#8220;resolution&#8221;, even though we obviously have two documents here.</p>
<p>I would love to see your take on this expression. I wrote down my understanding of it on my own blog: <a href="http://blog.outerthoughts.com/2009/03/conjunctions-in-named-entities/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.outerthoughts.com/2009/03/conjunctions-in-named-entities/</a></p>
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